A Little Bit Richer

Iona: Hi, I am Iona Bain and welcome to A Little Bit Richer, brought to you by L&G. Now there can be pressure to get ahead in your career to earn more money and push for promotions. We can see competition from all angles and it can be hard to build the confidence to succeed, but we might be thinking too linear. So here today to talk us through why we need to reconsider our career opportunities is Helen Tupper. Helen and her co- founder Sarah Ellis started the award- winning company, Amazing If. They work with companies like Microsoft, Levi's, BBC, Danone, and Visa to support people with the skills to succeed in a squiggly career.

Together, they're the authors of two Sunday Times bestsellers, The Squiggly Coach, and You Coach You. And their TEDx Talk, The Best Career Path Isn't Always a Straight Line has been watched by almost 2 million people. Welcome, Helen.

Helen: Thank you so much.

Iona: My generation has often been told that if we work hard, then we can achieve success by climbing that career ladder. Is that true? And if not, why not?

Helen: There's a few things to unpack there. So work hard, achieve success. I think what we might need to challenge is what success means. So what the career ladder has presented is that success equals seniority. And the promise is if you show up, you work hard, you'll go up this mythical ladder and you'll be happy because success is being senior and that's possible for everybody. And there are two really big challenges with that assumption. So the first is that everybody is motivated by becoming more senior, and the second is that promotions are possible for everybody just as a result of working hard. And the reality is that people are motivated by different things.

Some people want to stay in the job that they're in and grow in that job and feel a sense of achievement and connection to the work that they already do. Some people want to experiment and learn by developing in different directions, and some people do want to become more senior, but what we have created is a construct where that freedom isn't really allowed. And so people feel like they're failing if they want to stay where they are or they feel like they're doing the development wrong if they want to take a sideways move. And so we need to redefine what career success looks like for people and make different answers okay.

And also presenting this idea of the career ladder where promotions are possible for everybody also doesn't reflect the reality. They just are not that many promotions for people and so it's a bit of a false promise.

Iona: And so does this situation create that feeling within a lot of people that they're not good enough? How important is confidence in all this?

Helen: Well, there are many moments that matter in careers, and one of them are the conversations we have with people about our development. So if you are my manager and you are asking me, " Helen, where do you see yourself in the next five years?" And I think, " Well, the only acceptable answer is to become more senior."

Iona: It always feels like a trick question, doesn't it?

Helen: It's a really ladderlike question and it creates quite a lot of pressure on somebody to come up with the right answer. And I think that is the moment where people's confidence gremlins grow. So they might think, "Well, I don't really know what I really want to do, but I feel like I have to say something so that you think that I care about my career and I'm being ambitious." Rather than a confident conversation, which might sound like, " Actually there are quite a few different opportunities I'm interested in. What's most important to me is..." I'd love to talk to you about where those learning opportunities might be.

And these open curious conversations unlock lots more opportunity, but they do require confidence from the individual and slightly different questions in career conversations. It works best when somebody's got self- awareness and confidence in their career, but the conversations that they're having with their managers and their mentors and people in positions of influence are not ladderlike.

Iona: So what are the things that maybe we should be thinking about a little bit more when we're having those conversations?

Helen: There are some what we call squiggly swaps. So there are ladderlike words that creep into conversations which will limit people's development. So for example, a conversation centred on my job title. Something that's much more squiggly is to talk about talents. So where do I get my energy? What do I want to be known for? How can I use that more much bigger, better conversation? We talk about talents. Talents take people a lot further than job titles do.

Next one would be about sort of levels. So ladderlike conversations often about levels and grades, squiggly conversations centre much more on learning. What do you want to learn? They centre much more on growth.

What does growth look like for you over the next 12 months? You don't have to have all the answers, but I don't want people to have the answers because I want them to be curious and open. Having that awareness about yourself and your career means that you are not predetermining the conversation, which I think when people go, " I want to get promoted." The conversation's predetermined. And if that promotion isn't possible, the conversation doesn't go much further.

Iona: There is a big challenge to this though, which is that titles and levels and grades matter to a lot of people because they bring more pay. And that is incredibly important, especially right now where people feel that their incomes really need to rise. So what would your response to that be? How do we get people to think about getting a good income but also learning more?

Helen: So there's sort of a short- term, long- term payoff thing going on here. So in the short term, I might want a job that pays me more. So in the short term, I think we just have to be a bit careful of the assumption that the only way I'm going to get paid more is to get promoted. So often there is movement within a grade or a level. Sometimes a horizontal move into another function can also unlock pay. It doesn't always have to be promotion. So I would explore that, I would get curious. The long term is that it is likely that learning will unlock more opportunities for your career.

So you might think, " Well, how does learning a new skill right now help me get paid more next week?" It might not to be honest, but what it will help you with is next year, the next couple of years, you will have more roles that are available to you. And the more choice you have, the more control you have and the more you can push for the pay that's important. So I do think you've got to balance short- term conversations about pay progression and long- term learning that will create dividends for your development in other ways, 2, 3, 4 years hence.

Iona: Yes. It sounds like you're talking about an environment in which people don't have to be loyal to their employer. Do we need to be thinking a bit more sideways in terms of looking at what's available elsewhere?

Helen: I want everyone to have the freedom and flexibility to develop in the direction that's right for them. We call it squiggle and stay. So we want individuals to have the awareness to work out what is the right direction for me to develop and we want organizations to provide more than promotions to make that possible. So I think really, whether it's inside an organization or outside an organization, I don't want people to feel stuck. I think the power of the employer over the employee has changed. I think people do have more choices now, but that only comes when they take control. You have to invest in your learning.

It's what makes you valuable, it what makes you remain relevant and resilient in your career. I think you also just have to have that awareness and confidence in talking about your career, in talking about your skills. That is what gives you that choice and that control.

Iona: So who can we look to for support in developing ourselves in our careers?

Helen: So in ladderlike careers, we often look to our manager as the guru of good advice, the gateway for our growth. And what happens if you don't have a great manager, suddenly development are very dependent on them and you're limited as a result. So what we want to create is a community around an individual's career. And this doesn't mean you have to know everybody in the company. It doesn't mean you need 10,000 connections on LinkedIn. I think there's a principle that's really important when you're building a community and then practically there's four people that matter most. So the principle is this is not just about people knowing people.

So it's not about casual connections, but strong relationships are built on help. And this matters because one, people enjoy helping people. So if anyone's thinking, " Oh, I feel a bit awkward about networking." Your brain quite likes helping people. It's called the helpers high, makes us feel useful, valuable. So thinking how can I help is a better way for me to start building a relationship with somebody. It also results in reciprocity. So when people feel like you've been helpful, they want to help you in return. And that's not always an immediate action. It could be a month or two down the line when you get in touch with someone, they're much more likely to respond to requests for help, having built that reciprocity.

Iona: Enlighten self- interest.

Helen: Exactly. And to be honest, it just feels good. Even if someone doesn't help you back, does it really matter? If you've helped someone, you feel good. I always think that is good enough. So that's the principle. Just think how can I be helpful? Now, there are four relationships in a career community that make the biggest difference to someone's development. So the first is the role of a mentor. A mentor is just someone who has done what you want to do. They don't have to be more senior than you, could be a peer, anyone really. And what you benefit from with a mentor is advice, you're borrowing their experience really. Just start with a meeting.

Now you might have a conversation, there might be a connection and you might have a follow- up meeting or it might evolve into something more meaningful over time. But don't start with this needs to be a two- year relationship with somebody because it's quite a lot of pressure to put on someone you've not actually spent any time with yet. The second one is peer relationships. So if a mentor has done what you want to do, a peer is somebody who's going through what you are going through. There's often a lot of trust and support in there. They are experiencing things at the same time. So you can share learning with each other. Peers accelerate your development.

Third one is a sponsor. This is where I often find the biggest gap in people's communities. So a sponsor is somebody who's got access and influence over an area you are interested in. So that could be a project that you'd like to work on, could be a position that you're interested in. And what they can do if you build the right relationship with them is they can advocate for you. And the fourth and final one is a coach. So coaches are people who will ask questions to unlock your thinking, but in the context of your community, this doesn't have to be a professional coach. I think it's easier to think who do I know that has got a coaching approach?

So two skills to look out for here, the people who ask good questions and also to be a good listener because coaches are not there to give the answers, they're there to ask the questions. You are the person doing the thinking, generating your own answers and think it's who have I got and who have I not? And just to keep coming back to that question because we all have gaps. None of them are perfect, but it just helps us to prioritize the relationships we need to invest in. It's just somebody who is non- judgmental, who doesn't try and switch to their experience and go, " Oh, well when I was in this situation..." Because that's more mental mode.

The best way that I've found people with coaching approaches have been the people that when I worked with them, they asked me questions that I found a bit uncomfortable. Like, " Helen, why are you actually doing that? What's driving you?" And when I worked with them, (inaudible) . We're just trying to get it done. I don't want to think about this now that's too big a question. But now I hold those people in my mind because I know you are going to ask the hard questions.

Iona: They're like a sounding board.

Helen: They are good at holding pauses. They don't interrupt. That's what to look out for.

Iona: We all need people like that in our lives.

Helen: We do.

Iona: That's so valuable. So when you are thinking about making a pivot and going in this different direction, people will fear that it will go wrong. And if it goes wrong, maybe it's meant leaving a job that had a lot of security and not being as financially stable and having a more difficult time. What would your advice be to those who are scared about making that next move?

Helen: So there's this fear- based response to change and then there is a very practical one of, "But what if I don't enjoy it? And what if I am not good at it? I've not done this before." So I think there are two different things to work on here. So the first one is caging confidence gremlins. And the second one is trying to get some exposure and experience before you make that move so that you mitigate the risk of it going wrong. The confidence gremlin piece, a lot of that is moving from limiting beliefs. Like, " What if people don't like me in that team? If I fail, I'm going to be a failure." To more limitless thinking.

To honest it sounds a little bit cheesy, but the truth is that when our confidence gremlins are growing, they tell us a really negative story that stops us taking action. So when I say limitless beliefs, all I'm saying is change the story. So if I do it and I fail, at least I'm going to learn. And it is having a statement that you can say to yourself that gives you at least the confidence to take action. The second bit is, " But I don't have experience. I don't know anybody, it might not work." Here, I would say building a bridge between where you are today and where you want to get to is really important.

And that do you know people say, look before you leap. I think this more, the learn before you leap. Could you shadow somebody? Could you just get a mentor who tells you about a day in their life? And the more data you have about this move for your development, the better the decision you'll make is and the more informed you'll feel.

Iona: I mean a lot of young professionals who feel very disillusioned and trapped on the corporate career ladder because they feel that they need to be at the level they're at in order to afford the lifestyle, but they're not particularly fulfilled. What would your advice be to anyone who feels that they're trapped in that situation and there's nowhere to go?

Helen: It's really hard. We spend a lot of our time at work and so to feel you're not having the impact that you want and you're not enjoying what you're doing, I think there are things that you can do about it though. I always go back to it was one of our squiggly skills, which is around values. So forget job titles and forget the way you work, just forget all that for a moment. Actually, you at a very human individual level, what is it that motivates and drives you? That's all the values are and everyone has them and they're not things that change.

They're pretty stable. So when I do these exercises, I have four words that always come out. So these are my values, freedom, growth, energy, and achievement. That is what makes me me. They'll be different to your answers, different to other people's answers.

Iona: That sounds pretty similar to mine.

Helen: But do you know with values, even when you have the same word, it can actually mean something different.

Iona: Very true.

Helen: So my business partner who is very different, she has achievement. Her definition of achievement is having one big win to work towards. That's my idea of a nightmare. I don't want one big win. My win is having lots of wins to work on. So even the same word can mean something different. But the point is when I'm feeling a bit flat or a bit frustrated, it's often because my values are not being fulfilled. I haven't got freedom. I've got a micromanaging manager. And it really helps you to think, what am I missing at the moment and what could I do differently? And sometimes the answer is actually not in work.

So, I have been in a situation where I knew what my values were and I was red and be greening them and there was quite a lot of red on my freedom, growth, energy and achievement. I want to do this, but I can't work out in this organization at this time. How am I supposed to get this stuff? But I was slightly stuck. There were reasons that I was in that role that I could not change immediately. And so what I did was I found that fulfilment outside of work. So I still concentrated on achieving inside of work, but these values are not going anywhere. I'm not going to be happy in my life if I haven't got these things somewhere.

And so I actually started a side project and these things that I cared about, I found fulfilment somewhere else. And then what happened over time is I worked through the work issues. I stayed in the company that I was in and I made some changes, but they didn't happen overnight. But in the meantime, those things that mattered most to me, I was still finding fulfilment. I also in the company that I was in, tried to connect with people outside of my role, make new relationships because that is what unlocks opportunity.

Iona: Because not all of us can have the luxury of working in jobs that give us lots and lots of fulfilment and satisfaction all of the time. Sometimes it is a job that will pay the bills and that's okay.

Helen: What is important is that you understand, we talk about using your values as a compass for your career. Let that be the thing that guides you in what you do.

Iona: A lot of what you've talked about, it's not necessarily about getting recognition, it's about what drives you and what makes you feel satisfied. So how can we step out of that need for recognition that we all have that I also think maybe is a bit amplified by social media.

Helen: So I think when you know what your values are and you ground yourself in your values, you're less dependent on validation. And obviously recognition is important, but I think you also don't need to just rely on recognition. You can't support yourself with reflection. So what have I done well this week? Who have I made a difference to? What am I proud of? Those sorts of questions, we have an exercise which we call very small successes.

So at the end of every day, particularly if you're going through a knotty moment, this can really help. Just take two weeks at the end of every day, force yourself to reflect on three things that you've done well that day. The first one you'll find, you'll be like, " I went for a lunch break." The first one might come-

Iona: Still a win.

Helen: It's still a win. That is exactly it because when work doesn't feel great, it is very hard for you to see your wins. The point of this is to see the very small successes. And if you can keep this up, three successes a day for two weeks, you will have 42 small things that you have done well. But 42 things doesn't seem so small. It starts to be more significant and suddenly I'm less reliant. My manager's never going to tell me 42 things I've done well in two weeks. That's never going to happen. I might get one.

Iona: You have to tell yourself.

Helen: That's it, you have to tell yourself and you don't have to do this all the time. But I would say in the hard moments, it is very helpful that you reflect and recognize your own wins rather than relying on other people to validate you.

Iona: So this has been really, really helpful, Helen. But finally, what are your three tips to create a career that works for you?

Helen: I think number one, confidence. I think confidence can help you to be so brave about the things that you do with your development or it can hold you back. And I think if you can start to be aware of what gremlins are getting in your way and start to change the story that they're telling yourself, it makes a massive difference to your development. Second is community.

This is very hard to do on your own. Building a community will help you grow beyond where you are today. And I think the third thing is don't wait for other people to do things for you in your development. You'll start to get frustrated. Create opportunities for yourself.

They don't have to be massive. They could just be, " I'm creating by sharing an idea. I'm creating by putting a meeting in place with somebody." Just think, " How can I create more opportunities for myself this week?" And even if it's just one thing, it's better than the person who's waiting for the career conversation six months from now.

Iona: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Helen.

Helen: My pleasure.

Iona: Helen, that was incredibly insightful and I think we're all feeling a little bit squigglier now. So thank you very much and thank you for listening. I would absolutely love it if you could follow the podcast, leave us a review, and that way you can help others get a little bit richer too. Keep up with the show on YouTube, TikTok, and Instagram at Legal & General. Until next time, see you soon.